Dispute Tribunal Help

doubledippps on 29/09/2023 - 11:37
Last edited 29/09/2023 - 11:38

Hi guys need some advices, bought a side by side fridge freezer through Trade me for $400, turn out the fridge is faulty, the fridge is not cooling and freezer side don't freezer at all except the bottom 2 with bin. And the the handle was broken, can see seller tried to glue it back but didn't use a proper glue, and it came off on the second day, all this doesn't mention in the seller post on trade me.

This is all he mentioned on the sell post in Trade me:
"Good working condition. Bought not long ago as doesn't fit in our kitchen. Free delivery in Christchurch city"

Seller delivered the fridge to our new house on Saturday, he turned it on after we shift the fridge to the kitchen, and turn it was turn off by me because we will be away for a week to clean up our old house and won't be using it, and obviously fridge need to be sitting for hours before it can turn on again after shifting.

We back to the new house after a week on Saturday and turn it on to find out it is not working and contact the seller, what he basically response is told us we broke the fridge because when he delivered he can turn it on and that mean it's working condition and he say it's been a week, I told him the fridge will turn on doesn't mean it is in good working condition to sell because it's not cooling.

We pay him by bank transfer and so Trademe being not helpful at all and just ask us to go to Dispute Tribunal.

Can anyone advice should I go through Dispute Tribunal in this case? Are they gonna favor us in this case and we can get a refund?

(I went and bought a new fridge from NL and will be delivering today and remove the fridge are included if we're not are going through the dispute tribunal.)

General Discussion

Comments

  • Alan6984 on 29/09/2023 - 11:54
    +1

    First - there is a fee ($45) you would have to pay.

    Second - You need to be able to properly identify the other party (easy with a company for example, potentially harder with an individual).

    Then you would have to document the issue(s) and submit to the DT - the other party gets copies. I think they can also submit documents.

    You'd have to show that the fridge was broken upon delivery I guess.

    I'd suggest considering the time you would have to put into it (including the above, and attending a hearing - might be able to do that remotely nowadays?), and whether you have an alternative value for that time (could you work extra hours at your job for example), and then you have to try to work out the chances of winning (no idea myself).

    For $400 or so, I would say not likely to be worth it (for me at least), but your situation might differ, and you may value the 'justice' aspect very highly :-)

    Have a look at the DT website - it will set out the whole process, fees, etc.

    • doubledippps on 29/09/2023 - 12:11

      Yes we have his phone number and email only, not even his address because he delivery the fridge, think Trademe will supplied those information?

      The fridge can turn on on delivery, he basically just turn on the power and fridge light up and have power, is these all can prove the fridge in good working condition? I can't this think of anything I do can broke a fridge in 1 week?

      Yes I understand all those extra that gonna cost me that's my concern for now also, $400 is not really a big amount but i'm now like you say it's on the justice side, doesn't feel like let that bastard get away with selling faulty stuff to people. But before that just to make sure we gonna win the case :(

      • bigcheese on 29/09/2023 - 12:18
        +1

        There is some information on the process on the Trade Me site here.
        They may help you obtain the sellers details but it is up to their discretion. Details are on the link I gave under the section ''I don't have the seller's details'. You will need to complete their statutory declaration first.
        Good luck!

      • Stoic on 29/09/2023 - 13:00

        If you have their name and it's not a super common name then you can try find their address in the white pages and on terranet http://www.terranet.co.nz/terranet3/ if they own their own home. Free to make an account.

        • Jizah on 29/09/2023 - 13:06

          Or the electoral roll

          • Alan6984 on 29/09/2023 - 15:41

            @Jizah: I suspect there might be some correlation between dodging debts and avoiding being on the electoral role, in the white pages, and being named as the owner of real estate :-(

            • L3tstaxth1s on 30/09/2023 - 16:14

              @Alan6984: Isn't it mandatory to be on the electoral roll?

              • Alan6984 on 30/09/2023 - 17:23

                @L3tstaxth1s:

                Isn't it mandatory to be on the electoral roll?

                I believe so, but then it is also mandatory to not commit criminal offenses, and yet, shocking though it may be to some, there are people out there that still do it 🤯

    • Bargain-Hunter on 29/09/2023 - 12:13
      +1

      Sorry this happened to you OP, I just thought I would add, even if you manage to identify the seller and win at the Tribunal there is no guarantee they will pay.

      • Alan6984 on 29/09/2023 - 12:51

        Good point - I would think there would be options for pursuing payment?

        However, it would be a matter of the time and effort being worth it.

        • Bargain-Hunter on 29/09/2023 - 13:18

          I think that to 'enforce' further steps, such as applying to the District Court, may be necessary. See here.

          However, OP, don't be discouraged from attempting the Tribunal process because the seller might simply cave and issue a refund upon receiving a Tribunal summons.

    • mdsl32 on 29/09/2023 - 14:27

      Would add you should possibly get a technician to provide a report on the fault and if it seems like it was always broken.

  • Senior Mouse on 29/09/2023 - 12:48
    +1

    You'll have to argue that the fridge was broken before you took posession of it and you will have to prove this beyond reasonable doubt which I don't think is possible.

    It would be his word against yours, and unless you have evidence to show your side is more probable, you won't win. The defendant would be innocent until proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt). There is also some onus on you as the buyer who didn't feel necessary to check everything to your satisfaction at the point of trade (although having the seller wait until the fridge can be fully tested is unlikely to happen).

    From what we can tell, you won't win at the DT unless you have some good evidence you haven't told us.

    You could just have had "an accident" and dropped it when attempting to load it onto your truck on your insured property to get a claim to cover your loss?

    • Alan6984 on 29/09/2023 - 12:54
      +4

      I have doubts that the level of 'proof' is going to be:

      beyond reasonable doubt

      that is normally associated with criminal cases, and there is no concept of 'guilty' and 'innocent' in a contractual dispute such as this.

      In a civil dispute, common-sense would indicate it would be 'on the balance of probabilities' or something similar.

      However, the OP would still need to provide sufficient evidence that the fridge was broken upon delivery, which might prove challenging.

      • mycomputer on 29/09/2023 - 13:35
        +2

        Can confirm having gone through the DT process that the approach would be 'on the balance of probabilities' and not 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Whilst the onus is on the OP to prove, technically it is a lesser degree of proof.

        You could also have the party not show up to DT and get an automatic win (provided you can convince the adjudicator) but then there is the issue of actually getting the money. Some cases I have heard of have imposed minimum payments of $5 per week (80 weeks for the OP's case).

        Personally, don't think it's worth the rigmarole

        • Alan6984 on 29/09/2023 - 14:33

          Can the DT impose a payment plan like that, or do you have to go through another (separate) process?

          I had figured the DT would just decide you won (say, $400) and the othe party was now legally liable - getting it paid would then be up to you.

          • mycomputer on 29/09/2023 - 14:41

            @Alan6984: I believe you need to apply to have payments enforced once they have been shown not to have paid

          • LupinS on 29/09/2023 - 14:44

            @Alan6984: DT just rule pay X amount. They might say X amount per week for X weeks - but that'd be with your agreement (or at least knowledge).

            Getting someone to pay can be straight up impossible. Especially if they know the systems, and know they can simply ignore most things. Dept collector isnt going to touch anything under $1000 (probably more), avoiding the baliff is as easy as saying "they don't live here" and garnishing wages requires you to know where they work/live (and if they move or change jobs, finding them again)

        • kiwical on 30/09/2023 - 08:11

          If the referree finds in favour of the complainant and the defendant is required to pay but doesn't it is a separate system via court appointed baliffs and a distress warrant. If they STILL don't pay up the baliffs can seize assets and even be able to issue or refer the defendant for arrest.

          I have been down this road. I had to do a lot of the work for the baliffs. Like basically tell them the person will be here on this date and this time so go and serve them.

          One good point if it gets to this stage is you CAN also claim your fees. So you are allowed to also add your $45 DT fee and whatever other costs you had on top.

  • kiwical on 30/09/2023 - 08:13

    Overall Geoff I also don't believe DT would find in your favour.
    These ones are tricky is no evidence of what happened to the fridge between them dropping it off and you using it.

    Have you considered getting an appliance repairer to look at your fridge? Could be something as simple as a new thermostat required.
    Often a good old google search can give you hints of what the problem is.

  • Drcspy on 30/09/2023 - 08:21

    You'll need phone number, full name, address of the other party. And be aware that even if you win the DT collecting the money from the other party is NOT necessarily straight forward and may involve you having to get Bailiffs involved. If it's a couple of hundred dollars I'd just forget it TBH and move on…..

    • L3tstaxth1s on 30/09/2023 - 16:16

      Would TM provide the address of the vendor to assist or cite privacy?

      • bigcheese on 30/09/2023 - 16:25

        At their discretion they will.
        See my comment here

        • CJ on 01/10/2023 - 14:36

          does payment via Trademe or internet banking directly to seller make any difference here? not all seller accept payment via TM. Even they had, what power does TM have to reverse the payment, I doubt very much.
          What's that seller's rating like?

          • bigcheese on 01/10/2023 - 15:51

            @CJ: The method of payment makes no difference and Trade Me has no power to reverse any payment.
            All they can do is provide you with the sellers details upon you signing the declaration form at the district court and you confirming that making a claim is the sole purpose of needing the information.
            It can be a long process and you have to decide whether it’s worth the effort.

            • RockCartel on 01/10/2023 - 16:22

              @bigcheese: Trademe has one more thing they can do, ban the seller.
              I've been scammed twice, paid and nothing turned up. One seller went silent, the other said they sent it and can see it was delivered, but refused to send the tracking number or details of the postage method.
              In both cases logged a dispute with Trademe who 'investigated' and asked if I have received the item. I said no, they closed the dispute with no further action.
              In both cases the seller is still active on Trademe.
              Scaming appears easy and low risk.

  • kiwijunglist on 30/09/2023 - 12:42

    What an (profanity) seller. Sorry you got ripped off. At least it was only $400 and not more.

  • Toddy47 on 30/09/2023 - 16:50

    How old is the fridge? What is the model number (is it a current model) if it's fairly new what warranty does it come with new? Has the temperature settings been set all the way down?

  • akrotohur on 30/09/2023 - 17:17

    One of the best thing with using Trade Me is their Ping payment system, that offers buyers protection. Unfortunately you bypassed that.

    • Senior Mouse on 30/09/2023 - 23:40

      Not all sellers offer this though

  • Huntakillaz on 03/10/2023 - 17:51
    +1

    Are you absolutely sure it wasn't working on delivery becuase you can tell within 5mins that a fridge is cooling by just sticking your hand in and it should be slightly cooler than room temp.

    Usually if I buy something 2nd hand I inspect and test it the same day make sure it's all good.

    Also have you checked its not the fuse to that specific PowerPoint or a fuse in the fridge?

  • nzmax on 03/10/2023 - 18:18

    You really should have tested it originally and got back to them that day if faulty. It may have developed a fault after they delivered it. Remember that it is second hand. If it is a good brand and quality fridge, it may not be too expensive to get it repaired and maybe less hassle than going down the DT route.

  • doubledippps on 04/10/2023 - 15:53

    Hi guys thanks for all the inputs, been really tired and busy moving and tidying the house, after going thru the comments and so to cut the hassle I just let noel leeming remove the old fridge for me, not going thru the dispute tribunal :(

    • kiwijunglist on 05/10/2023 - 07:04

      That's a good choice. Ket it go and move on

    • FiveFeetUnder on 12/10/2023 - 08:28

      If you want $50 of the $400 back then you can talk to ANZ about home loans for 5min and they will give you free money. See the Home Loan Check In part.

      https://www.anz.co.nz/personal/home-loans-mortgages/manage/g…

      • bigcheese on 12/10/2023 - 08:40
        +1

        I posted that here if you want to see comments from other Cheapies.
        Easy money if you already have a home loan.

        • FiveFeetUnder on 12/10/2023 - 10:43

          Thanks for the Link. I remember seeing it on here but my searching failed me

  • NovaAlpha on 12/10/2023 - 01:31
    +2

    @OP - a couple of tips to avoid this in the future:

    • Check Trademe feedback. There are userscripts and other tools out there for making this easier to filter out just the bad feedbacks out of the hundreds of feedbacks for a Trademe seller. Also can use BidBud for this as well.

    • Always check out the item in person, especially if it's of a high value. Don't trust the description in the listings. Always do your homework and triple check before you buy. You can always arrange to view the fridge in person and if it's all good, then have it delivered to your house for free and payment release only on delivery.

    • Always document the unboxing process. Many years ago, I bought something online from Aliexpress and it was broken right off the bat. I didn't document the unboxing process and the refund took forever. Since then, I always make sure to video record the unboxing, so that they can never deny that the item was faulty after I used it. It'd be easier if you have a tri-pod or something to mount your phone or camera so that you are handsfree while unboxing the package. Always record the date (get it from timeanddate.com or whatever to show the current date + time) and just try to provide as much info as possible prior to opening the package. In your case, video record the entire fridge from when it was delivered. Just ask the seller to give you a couple of mins to inspect. It's not cheap after all and you'll save all the time and hassle dealing with the issues afterwards, which is costing you more than just the $400.

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