• long running

Z + Caltex $80+ off Every Second Month Depending on Usage (Requires Flybuys)


This is why I feel Z and Caltex are the best stations to fuel up your petrol in Hamilton (potentially elsewhere in the country too). Although fuel price is usually more expensive at Z or Caltex compared with KLD or Mobil, after using the discounts from their reward program it always works out to be cheaper.

I have included a google spreadsheet to show how much savings I make every 2nd month by fueling up with Z or Caltex (depending on which station is cheaper at the time of fueling). Feel from to make a copy and input your own data.

Savings every 2nd month:
* Z or Caltex = $84.98
* Mobil = $52.07
* KLD = $31.61

Steps to get these savings at Z+Caltex:

  1. Change the currency of your Flybuys to Fuel Discounts
  2. Invest in a cheap fuel canister incase you can't fill the entire $40 into the tank in your car
  3. Choose Flybuys reward on your Z app and Caltex app
  4. Find the cheapest Caltex or Z station using Gaspy, Android, iOS, fuel up only on SuperPumped days (10c discount instead of 6c), usually every Wednesday in Hamilton.
  5. At the station fuel up $40 at a time*, you can pay at pump using your apps instead of running into the store to pay if you have multiple $40 fills.
  6. Choose to accumulate the savings
  7. Use the points on SuperPumped days before the points expire at the end of 2nd month **

* My car has a 70L tank so I usually fuel up near empty so I can fit at least 2 lots of $40 in one tank easy, this also saves me wasting petrol travelling to stations for fills. I also carry a 20L fuel canister with me for those times where I cannot fill the entire 2nd lot of $40 into my tank. I use the fuel in the canister every now and then to stretch me to the next SuperPumped day when needed. Although my calculation shows a saving of $80+ every 2nd month, in reality I usually get a free tank of fuel at the end of 2nd month because you can also accumulate Flybuys elsewhere.
** Have to make sure your total accumulated points do not exceed the fuel price, otherwise all the extra accumulations are wasted, i.e. if you accumulated $2.42 off per litre and the fuel price is $2.40, you have wasted $0.02 off per litre.

For those wanting more details please read on:

Z + Caltex
On average I use $80 of fuel per week which allows me to fuel up 2 lots of $40 at Z or Caltex, I use the remaining fuel in the canister to "smooth out" the fueling frequency. This means I get to accumulate 20c (10c per $40) every week. The reason I use 2 months cycle is because points expire at the end of the month following the month in which the point was earned. On top of that every 20L gives you 1 Flybuys and every 4 Flybuys gives you further 3c off/L. For those who buy coffee or other items with Z, they also give you Flybuys there, I have not included this in the calculation so we can compare this calculation equally with other fuel companies.

With Farm Source Supercard you get 16c off which equates to $42.5 savings at the end of the 2nd month. Fuel is usually cheaper at Mobil compared to Z or Caltex which gives you a further saving of $4.2 at the end of 2nd month, on top that you can also accumulate Smiles which gives you $5.2 at the end of 2nd month. Mobil give you 1 smiles point per regular 91 and 1.5 smiles per 95 or 98, for my speadsheet I have used savings for 91 only.
300 Mobil Smiles points = $5
500 Mobil Smiles points = $10
1500 Mobil Smiles points = $30
It is best to use the smile points when you reach 500 points so I have used this option for the calculation. The total savings from Mobil gives you $52.07 for the same about of L of fuel at the end of 2nd month.

KLD in Hamilton usually give the best price for fuel, I am not aware of any reward program with them. According to my calculation at the end of 2nd month you get a saving of $31.61.

If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will try and answer if anything is not clear.

Referral Links

Z App: random (23)

Referrer gets 1 free coffee (up to 3 max).

Z Electric: random (25)

Referee gets 50L+ extra 25L. Referrer gets 50L.

Related Stores

Fly Buys NZ
Fly Buys NZ


  • +4

    You cannot accumulate Mobil Smiles on top of Farmsource 16c discount.

    • +1

      Thanks for that, that gives even more reason to fill up at Z or Caltex!

  • +6

    I love the detail and thought you have put into this.

  • OMG, you’re a star.
    Just for the way you’ve worked it out.
    Hats off.
    BTW, i uses waitimo and gets roughly around same with spin (I only fill up $20 at once to get more spins/tank).
    Any thoughts on that??

    • I have not included Waitomo in the calculation because I could not figure out the odds of wining. If someone has the odds I can put it into the spreadsheet for a comparison!

      • Hard to predict the odds of lottery but mostly it gives $0,$2,$3,$5,$10. But it seems like generic they allocate a rough amount based on your usage and spread it out over the period.
        I’ll keep an eye on winnings from now onwards.

  • +2

    Awesome analysis. I also do the Colmar Brunton surveys for FlyBuys which work out to be pretty good value when you apply to fuel discounts

    • Highly regard doing them too. I don't drive much in my personal car and I still get hefty discounts consistently

  • +1

    Thank you for the awesome detailed post!

  • Using the 10c every time I put in 40L it costs me an extra $3.50 at the end of it vs saving all the discounts and using them all at once.
    Strictly using caltex save vs use.

    • Spreadsheet updated

  • +1

    Nice work Miso!

    I believe Gull still works out cheaper, but maybe I am doing it wrong:

    If I understand correctly, you are calcuating for 265L of fuel across two months (actually eight weeks) at the prices shown at the top of your spreadsheet (obviously those can change, but the important thing is that they are all comparable at a given point in time, and I think we can reasonably assume that differences will perpetuate between the brands).

    For me, I use Gull on their discount days - that is usually 10c or 12c. I'll use 10c discount to make it less favourable to Gull.

    I also get 2 x $3 off $30 and 1 x $5 off $50 (both effectively 10% discount) vouchers from Gull on discount days (missed last week as my tank was pretty much full as still in lockdown so can't really go anywhere).

    My tank takes about 65 Litres I think (maybe 70 Litres as per Miso's car is standard and I am underestimating). I try to run my tank down ahead of anticipated Gull discount days, so I will assume I can buy 60 litres.

    For me, that means I would pay (I have rounded quantities etc to nearest litre):

    Quantity = 265 Litres (across two months per Miso spreadsheet)
    Gull = $2.31 per Litre (per Miso spreadsheet - Price at pump)
    Discount = 10c per Litre (on Gull discount days - once a month) on max of 60 Litres
    Discount = 10% (on max of $130 fuel purchase = 56 Litres @ $2.31 per Litre as above)

    So if I use 265 Litres (across two months to make it comparable), I would pay:

    2 x 56 Litres at ($2.31 - $0.23) = $2.08 per Litre = $234
    2 x 60 Litres at ($2.31 - $0.10) = $2.21 per Litre = $266
    33 Litres at $2.31 = $76

    Totals = 265 Litres = $576

    I generally use less than 265 litres across two months, so Gull would be even more favourable for me, but I wanted to make it comparable.

    It appears that Gull comes out about 10% cheaper than your $640 for 265 Litres at Z / Caltex, but am I missing something or perhaps missed how your spreadsheet is working?

    Always willing to change brands if it is cheaper!


    • Hi Alan,

      Sorry for not making it clear, the spreadsheet was a quick jumble of numbers and it may not make sense. It would cost $640 for 265L of petrol at Caltex/Z, however after applying the discount of $84.98 from the accumulated c/L at the end of 2nd month, this brings the total cost of fuel down to $553.4 for 265L.

      I also find it difficult to fit my schedule around 1 discount day per month. I will update the spreadsheet with Gull in it to show the comparison when I find some time.

      How do you get the $3 off $30 and $5 off $50 btw?

      • +1

        Hi Miso,

        Those are the vouchers they give you on discount days.

        You get three vouchers being:

        $5 off any spend over $50
        $5 off any spend over $50
        $3 off any spend over $30

        If you spend exactly those amounts, you are getting 10% discounts on the pump price.

        You can't use them ON the discount days (assume all day Thu and up to midday on Fri) so they are not 'stackable' with the 10c or 12c discount that day - they only become valid on the next day (Sat) and are valid for about three weeks to a Sun usually.

        Thanks for your efforts - very useful to unravel the complexity that the fuel companies like to use to make price comparison more difficult.


        • which Gull location is still giving out paper vouchers? all around me in East East auckland are unmanned afaik

          • @justaddwater: Yes - they do seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

            Last one I got, before lockdown (which is the second to last time I filled up!) was in Mt Roskill.


    • There's some potential more savings to be made if you can time your filling in Gull's Discount days. Mobil lowers their price significantly (pretty close to a price match) on discount days, and if you are using Supercard on top of that it amounts to about upwards of 20c(16c supercard+ pricematch by Mobil). Use a gas can and then stretch your filling. Works best for those having decent driving kms.

  • Curious to know how much extra fuel you'd use having to pull in to fill in every $40? Extra fuel cost for extra mileage to the pump, engine stop/start?

    Also, my fuel tank is 50L so there would be lower savings if I didn't use the accumulated discount on a fully empty tank (or fill a jerry can with the remaining fuel).

    For me personally, I value the convenience of having to fill up less often vs. the extra $16.5 per month.

    • You can fill 2x $40 during the same stop.
      It would be better if fuel prices just dropped instead of this savings day crap.

      I agree with the convenience thing and I just use the 10c when ever I fill instead of saving.

      • +1

        @Foodie If you use the 10c everytime you fill, you get around $26 at the end of 2nd month vs the saving of $84 if you accumulate. I have updated the spreadsheet to reflect this.

        • Oh yup, my math was slightly off.
          I have a smaller fuel tank so savings is less ~45L vs 50L for the final redemption of saved discounts
          $76 vs $26

    • Hi SoccerPianist,

      Good points.

      For me, I try very hard to only fill up when passing, and never go specially to the petrol station, so I would say the extra fuel for filling $40 rather than, say, $80 (twice as often) would be negligible (but I'm not doing an actual calculation so maybe it is more than I think?)

      I also try to fill up when I am not using time that has value per se. If I am between two meetings (and not running late!) and passing by, then the time I use filling up is effectively dead time anyway that I would have 'wasted' just listening to the radio, or posting on CC while waiting outside my next meeting :-)

      Of course, 'Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.'


    • I try not to make special trips to fuel up, usually when I do grocery or schedule it in with other things that I need to do. I usually do more than 2+ $40 fills every time I visit the pump, and with Z and Caltex app I can just unlock the pump using my phone, fill up $40 and hang up the pump and repeat this for the number of $40s that I need. Since your tank is 50L, I would put all the extra fuel in the fuel canister to make up to the 50L. It's really not that much extra work for me to be honest.

  • Extra Points for analysis. I have been filling my fuel tank only once in 1 months since AKL went into lockdown. Basically using fuel only travel to the supermarket.

  • Hey Miso, great post.

    I have been doing something similar but I use my flybuys towards new world dollars. I initially used them for fuel discounts, when this system launched, but didn't know how to use both the flybuy fuel discounts and pay in app stacked cent discounts when filling the tank up.
    I asked the people at the counter & both Z & Caltex & they told me the flybuys fuel discounts and cents discounts saved via pay in app were separate & cudnt be clubbed together. also discounts saved via Z or Caltex were not interchangeable. This was a while ago thought maybe the process has changed now.

    Do you know how I cud use them all in tandem? Thanks heaps mate!!!

    • +1

      I personally use Z app to accumulate all of the points, you can scan the code on your Z app at any Caltex as well to accumulate, this way all your savings are in one "wallet" instead of spreading across different apps. I also save the flybuys card on Z app as well. The downside of this is you can't unlock Caltex pumps using Z app and have to do 2X$40 fills then run into the station to pay.

      • Ohhh… mayb will give this a try… i prefer Caltex here in New Lynn AKL. been using them for the past 2 years now and also hv 2 Z pumps close by so hv good options… :)

        • +1

          When I was living around New Lynn before I used to go to the BP there, the price used to be at least 10c cheaper than all other stations around the place. I used the same fueling strategy to accumulate and spend all at once as well back then.

          • +1

            @miso: I too used BP until changed cars and had to spend on premium 95. now Caltex/Z r cheaper.

  • +3

    Nice work, miso!

    I am not sure have you considered switching to hybrid or electric? For people like you that contribute so much to our ACC and tax funding (thanks!), a switch may give you ultimate savings.

    My wife and I have switched from a family SUV and a BMW sedan to two Toyota Aqua three years ago. Fuel consumption suddenly dropped from 10-11L/100kms to 4.5L/10kms, plus extremely low maintenance cost compared to the past.

    The Past (Family SUV + BMW sedan) vs The Current (two Toyota Aqua)
    Fuel: from $4000 to $1700, saves $2300
    Service: from $900 to $400, saves $500
    Tyres (one car): from $1400 to $500, saves $900

    Depreciation: from at least $2000-$3000 per car per year to nearly zero (because a used Aqua's prices are very stable on Trademe), saves $5000

    Averagely, we saved $8700 per year on the cars, equivalent to $26K in last years. The only bad thing is that we are not driving nice cars, and can be mistakenly recognised as a uber car in the city! However, these savings helped us build a new deck, buy a new tv, get a new fridge, pay for overseas trips, and still have a lot left. So in my opinion, totally worth it unless you are rich enough not to care about these small savings.

    • Absolutely agree on the Hybrid. I drive a Honda Insight for more than 1.5 years and consistently average around 19-20.5 km/L. Maintenance is pretty cheap, brake pads last long.

    • Hi Anarchy,

      Why do you save on tyres by changing from pure ICE to hybrid?

      I am guessing your mileage did not change overall, but if it did, then that would have accounted for some of the savings?



      • Because 17 inch SUV tyres and 18 inch wide tyres on BMW sedan are quite expensive to replace, even with price match and shopping around, four tyres + fitting would cost me around at least $1200.

        When I replaced one set of tyres on Toyota Aqua, this was the first time I realised how cheap these 14/15 inch narrow tyres are! If go for Chinese brand, four tyres + fitting only cost about $330, if go for big brands, the cost is only about $550.

        • Makes sense.

          To be fair, that is a saving from moving from gas guzzlers to smaller, more economic vehicles, and the other running costs would have reduced for that change too regardless of moving to hybrids.

          Would be interesting to know if there is any saving from changing from ICE to hybrid (or pure electric) when considering all costs. My pick is that it stacks up if you do a lot of mileage (taxis for example), but not if you only do a small amount. There would be a break-even point at some mileage for each given comparable model I suppose.


          • @Alan6984: One thing I have found out after having hybrid (Toyota alpha) is they are much more quiet than there counter part.

            Also, if you are factoring running cost bear in mind the insurance as well. I think insurance is the lowest for hybrid and highest for electric. Correct me if I am wrong.

            • @ace310: Yes - electrics can be almost dangerous in a car park if someone is not looking and relying on their hearing to alert them to a vehicle! I don't think that will be an ongoing issue - everyone will get used to it, and naturally look around more, and rely on sound less.

              I don't have either - I am still running an ICE, so I would not know about insurance.


    • That's right! After reading this post on Clean Car rebate, I started looking for a second hand EV in June. I came across a 10bar 2013 Nissan Leaf that was around $9000. I called the dealer and asked if I can put in a deposit and get them to register the car after 1st July. They agreed and I am now a proud owner of a Leaf. The car was ~$6000 after the $3450 rebate and costs next to nothing to run, I live in an apartment where power is included so I charge the car every night to 80%. I also own a 4.5L V8 for the longer trips I make out of town, hence I am feeling the savings that I make by using the EV as a daily.

      Just looking at the fuel saving alone, $80 savings per week instead of the V8, the Leaf pays for itself just under 1.5 years! It has been one of the best investment in my life. So if anyone is looking to save some money, buy a second hand EV, it will pay itself back in no time. I still keep my ICE because I want to go for longer trips every now and then and my Leaf doesn't have the range.

      It would be cool if someone can create a spreadsheet where people can see how much savings they get by going EV (there is probably one out there already).

      • +1

        I am thinking the same thing for the next car to be electric. Simply plug in when I get home, use a smart plug to automatically charge my car between 9pm and 12am everyday on the Contact Good Night plan, almost zero cost to run except depreciation on the car value.

        If I have to travel, I always rent a car instead of using my own. Save the time to clean the car after a long trip and never worry too much about driving on an unsealed road.

        • You can set the EV to charge within a certain time frame without the smart plug, I think it come standard on most EVs these days.

      • +1

        Yes, I have an EV as well, over the last 3 years of owning it I have spent $180 on charging (yes that includes trips from AKL to Mt Ruapehu etc), the reason why it's so low is because I always charged in the Electric Kiwi Free Hour of Power, now more recently the Contact Energy 3 hours of free power Good Nights plan! Take into account, 0 maintenance over the last three years as well is proving to be amazing as there are so many less moving parts in an EV compared to a fuel burning car.

  • Or you could just buy an EV and charger at home for around $10. Seems easier than all the fluffing around.
    But thanks for the heads up.

  • Sign-up for Pureprofile > complete surveys > convert to AA points > Fill with BP app.

    Can't beat that combo.

    • How much can you save per L with this?

      • $2.5 in Pureprofile = 5c off on fuel.

        When it comes to redemption they have a max limit of $70 in a 60 day period.My last 2 months total stands at $82.

        I usually fill up on fortnightly basis to get extra 6c on the BP app.

        • Does that mean that, iIf you fill up with exactly 50L in one go, you break even (against taking the cash out of PureProfile) more is a better deal, and less means you'd be better taking the cash?


  • I'm a regular user of Z Sharetank in the Cambridge/Hamilton area. I have not done a detailed analysis of my savings compared to this excellent work done by Miso - but, simply going by the reported savings I have made as reported by the Z App - I have saved nearly $400 so far since Jan. The great thing about Sharetank is that it will always pay the lowest amount for each and any fill up. Only once this year did it tell me that the fill up price was cheaper than the price I was about to pay when I went to use Sharetank redemption at the checkout. That's a good sign that it is operating as should be and protecting me from wasting my savings from Sharetank purchases. You have to remember that the lowest price withing 30kms is for Z pricing only - not all service station brands within the 30kms - so you might be paying more than the cheapest Gaspy price in the area but the savings vs convenience of pre-pay and storage is still worth it. I usually top up at around $100 per time and have found that checking the cheapest Z station in the 30kms LATE on the evening of a 10c special rate day - will often be a good rate to buy in bulk. Obviously, you don't get the 10c saving rate for that day - but for some reason, the regular daily price falls lower than during the busier part of the day. I have noticed this two or three times now and will often check the rate late on one of those special nights. Again, this is just my personal take - not scientific lol.

  • Nice to see all this collective thinking. I calculated this when flybuys got its revamp and I have personally felt that what I do works pretty well. I dislike caltex. They are always like 10c+ more expensive whenever I go fill up at the next-door gull. Perhaps I'm just blind to it when my savings at gull are less but caltex is pretty much always the villain in my experience. IMO the stacked cents from $40 spends are negligible, wait let me explain. First off when there is a cheaper price the savings you get are reduced because you spent more for them. But the kicker is I use Colmar Brunton for my flybuys and convert to fuel discounts. I can easily bang out 10, 15, or even 20 flybuys in like 5 - 15 minutes, and when you realise 10 points = 7.5 cents the filling up your tanks $40 at a time strategy is a laborious, tedious, non-worthwhile game for me (and possibly more expensive considering the price per litre sometimes). I don't grind these surveys anymore (probably should) but when I did it was essentially 50 litres of free fuel every 2 month ( albeit only happening like 3 times ). I've used survey sites in the past but after my calculations I don't think anything comes close to the payrate of Colmar brunton ( $0.075 * 50 = $3.75 compared to maybe getting that in double the time on something like perceptive panel). So in short I fuel up at which ever place is cheapest for me, most of the time that's gull, on discount days especially and fuel up 50L once every 2 months from accumulated flybuys from a user on my account shopping at New World and the occasional survey I do. I don't even talk about Z because their prices speak for themselves.

  • Could I possibly suggest, if you're this concerned about fuel prices, investigating EVs?

    A typical EV gets 6 KM on a kWh of usage. You can get a kWh for 15-30c depending on your night rates, etc. That's 2.5-5c per KM, or equal to something like 50c a litre in the worst case scenario. We drive for nothing, of course, because we charge our EVs during Contact's daily free periods.

    Fuel prices are going to just keep going up. The current fuel price spike is driven by EV uptake along with COVID shutdowns reducing petrol demand(increasing the marginal cost per litre to produce). You can buy a brand new EV, finance it, and pay less each week than your fuel bill if you drive enough KM.

    Also, massive benefits in not having to schlep to fuel stations constantly(how tiring is that?) If you've bought the right EV to you, you will likely only need to stop by a fast charger for 20 minutes once a month or less, depending on your driving habits. Remember, you wake up every morning with a full battery.

    • My calculations (at least earlier this year) were that the one key point in there is, 'if you drive enough KM'.

      The total costs including purchase and estimated depreciation kill savings on a most-like-for-like basis of vehicle below a certain miileage, and make sense above it.

      My take is that this must be changing, and the break-even point is probably falling month by month though as EV prices come down, but if you already have an ICE, and you want to minimise your total cash outlays over time, you are probably best running it into the ground, then going EV.

      Also worth considering that, if you are doing lots of mileage, then you are likely not able to always charge for free (although there will be outlier exceptions I'm sure).


      • Don't forget that maintenance is negligible on EVs - depreciation is also lower(30 year service life for pretty much everything but the first gen EVs). As your mileage scales, you can usually find a good EV to fit, I believe the threshold is if you drive less 50km a week, a petrol vehicle tends to make sense, only if you change your own oil. Other than that, it's just cheaper to buy the EV.

        • In general you are correct, but there is no single break-even point for mileage - it has to depend on the vehicle model(s) that you are comparing (I'd suggest staying away from whoever told you that in terms of advice!)

          When I ran the numbers earlier this year, the break-even for the Honda (Fit?) we looked at was far greater than the 50km pw you have been told - that seems wildly unrealistic.

          If you are interested, have a read of this article on Westpac's site (about three months old - Aug 2021):

          In the conclusion, they talk about 50,000 km pa (1,000 km pw or thereabouts) but bear in mind - it will depend on the specific vehicle and the alternative ICE you are comparing it to:


          "Even with the government subsidy, EVs and hybrids are more expensive to buy than petrol cars. However, if you have the budget to pay that cost and your mileage is more than 50,000km per year, the annual cost savings going forward make the EVs worthwhile.

          If you’re a low-mileage driver, a petrol car with low emissions is more cost-effective and is also a better environmental option that a large diesel vehicle.

          It all comes down to how many kilometers you drive per year and what you need the vehicle for."

          • @Alan6984: Oh lord, that is a tragically misinformed article.

            In the tiny end of the scale - the cheapest secondhand ICE you can get is about $2k, and a cheap Leaf is $6k. Depreciation on both is negligible at that point. Say about 5 years for both of them before you'd sell or scrap them(both can last longer, but the leaf is scrapped for $4k typically due to the battery being usable for other things and the ICE is about $250). Please note I've done actually done this on both sides of the equation so these are real life numbers. So the Leaf needs to achieve $2k savings over that time.

            The ICE will cost over 25c per KM to run in ICE related costs - ~15c fuel, ~10c engine plus brakes maintenance(plus any of the 2,000 engine related parts can break and push that figure up enormously. Cylinder crack? head gasket? cam belt? alternator? frost plug? radiator crack? fuel pump? water pump? etc). The EV will cost 3c per KM typically, so say 22c a KM differential. It's higher in reality, but there you go. This is 9000 KM over 5 years, or 35KM a week to come out ahead. Plus, EVs are just better to drive, and if you buy it and use it right, you spend way way less time fueling and maintaining it. Next time you bring your car to your mechanic to get it fixed, or spend a day underneath it in the driveway, or line up at a gas station, that's time I'm just not spending. They just don't break.

            You can scale EVs up to match ICEs at every level, only at a certain point they completely outpace ICEs and just are a way better experience all around. Just need a broader set of options to plug a few gaps in the selection.

            If I was doing 50,000 KM a year, I'd save $10,000 a year. Consider EVs have about a $20,000 premium over their petrol counterparts(see: MG ZS EV vs MZ ZS), it would be about a 50% ROI. When was the last time you had a 50% ROI on an investment? That Westpac article is misguided. They have ignored some of the biggest financial benefits of EVs, and drawn a false conclusion. I can tell you now they definitely haven't owned an EV.

            • @Neongreen: Okay - I'm not going to bother helping you work through all that LOL.

              'They just don't break.'

              Good luck with that.

  • Thanks to OP miso for posting this. I think saving $80+ was assuming you didn't get the 6c off which can be obtained through airpoint or AA card. The saving over the 6c is actually around $37 (every 8 weeks) based on your spreadsheet. Still pretty good though. For those EV and Hybrid ideas, sure if you could afford them, and I wouldn't recommend getting a 2nd hand EV, too many issues on old batteries and very expensive to replace. Cheers

    • Ahhh…I was seriously considering the $6k Leaf mentioned above before reading this comment

      • Yes - read up about the battery life issues and the risks.

        As I understand it, there is currently no (reasonable) test that can be performed to be sure the battery is okay since unscrupulous people can do things to the batteries so that the reasonable tests that can be done are tricked.

        Pretty sure I remember a 'Fair Go' (?) article on this not too long ago where someone bought a cheap second-hand EV and the batteries needed replacing not long after at a cost that was close to (or maybe more than) the price they paid for the car.



        Bit more than the cost of the car, and I'm sure there might be other options, but the general issue remains.

        Beware of anecdotal claims from people you know (or don't) that they have bought one and had no problems, and therefore there are no problems that can possibly occur :-)

      • Don't be dissuaded! As long as you buy an EV which is a good fit for your daily driving, you'll be ecstatic. By letting Alan sway you, you're letting unfounded myths guide your decision making.

        I own 3 Leafs for various purposes, and they're great. I bought them for $6k, $15k, and $35k respectively. The Leaf platform is a little flawed in some respects, but is a great entry level experience.

        The $15k leaf has been owned for 2.5 years, and I have already run 50,000 KM through it, saving about $11k. I can sell it today for about $9k. I did have to get new tyres, and a thief broke a window which cost me $200 to replace. And, I had to top up the windscreen washer fluid once. This is what I have spent on the vehicle, in total. These are not specific to ICE or EV. My 70 y.o. mother loves it and refuses to drive an ICE because they're so cludgy in comparison.

        It is the earliest generation of leaf(2011) you can buy, which has the 'worst' batteries. Anything past 2013 has significantly improved battery tech. Even so, this was bought with 85% battery health(in 2019), and now has 77% battery health. At that rate of decline, I may be able to put another 200,000 kilometers on it, and it will last another 30 years.

        The $6k leaf has had a tougher life, and has a 65% SOH battery. It's done about 70k KMs, but I bought it to keep as a work runabout up north. It will likely stick around for another 10-20 years or so.

        And, the $35k leaf(now worth $30k - thanks subsidy :( ) has done 35,000KM since i bought it 1.5 years ago. I had to put a new set of tyres on it, and the battery has degraded 3%(94% to 91%). At that rate, there is about 500,000KM left on the battery.

        And the scary thing is, unlikely a rattly petrol motor which degrades rapidly, EVs will just keep going. On any EV made in the last 5 years, the bodies will fail long before any of the EV specific parts.

        Alan doesn't own an EV, and is just quoting random articles he finds to try and support his theories. When I gave him actual figures based on my real life usage of EVs, his answer was "I'm not going to bother with that". Don't stick with outdated tech and burn money just because someone on the internet is scared of the future.

        • Actually, I said, 'Okay - I'm not going to bother helping you work through all that LOL' but hey, don't let the accuracy get in your way at this point.

          On the specific point about second-hand batteries, if you have any evidence that these can now be properly checked, then by all means post the link - I would certainly be happy to know if that can now be done reliably.

          If you aren't sure how to post a link, any link, to evidence, just ask.


          • @Alan6984: Of course they can be - you can check your specific State of Health via the CANBUS on the car. I know this works for at least Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Tesla, and Nissan EVs but not sure about others because I have no experience with those.

            With Leafs, it is possible to temporarily 'boost' the SOH a few percent, using various laborious methods(warm the battery to 30 degrees, and run a 80%-0%-80%-0%-80% fast charging pattern a few times, which takes a lot of work and multiple hours of hogging a fast charger), or if you're skilled at reprogramming NAND chips, resetting the car's memory, but the SOH will still typically recalculate within a few charges and recalibrate within a week or so. It becomes immediately very obvious and there's no real benefit to be gained, because the person will know within a week.

            Contrast this to ICE vehicles, which don't have any way of calculating the age of their engine, only data counters. In fact, I purchased an 2006 ICE from a dealer about 6 years ago. When going to sell it, I eventually figured out said dealer had rewound the odometer en transit from Japan. There's no way to know because the car has no measure of degradation, whereas an EV recalculates it's SOH from the actual current state of the battery pretty quickly. This is surprisingly common, even these days!

            Said dealer was investigated and hundreds of vehicles he sold were wound back. He was prosecuted by Trading Standards thanks to my evidence. The only way we found he had wound back the odometers was the auction sheets from the actual Japanese car auctions for the cars, which became available through Carjam a couple years later.

            • @Neongreen: Hi NeonGreen,

              I truly appreciate your finding it hard to be objective - you have made the decision to purchase, and we all find it hard to be objective once we have skin in the game - none of us like to look like a fool, and most of us have tendencies to want to justify our decisions to ourselves and others (buyer's remorse is a very real thing and the desire to mitigate or eliminate it is equally real).

              I have nothing in this game currently - I have looked at the EV options previously, and I continue to look at them with a view to moving when it makes sense. That time will certainly come in the near future.

              If you truly believe you can test batteries and put a solidly backed guarantee behind it, there is a fortune for you to make right now. You might consider why nobody else is offering this service when it is so simple, but I'm sure your maths will stack up on this as with anything else.

              Let us (and FairGo) know when you are setup and running - I'm sure many of us would love to be able to make an objectively sensible decision to move to EVs sooner rather than later.

              I look forward to your announcement :-)


              • @Alan6984: You have zero experience and flawed knowledge about the day to day operation of EVs, and are then arguing that having reasonably extensive first hand experience makes one not objective? If anything, having experience owning both types of vehicles makes one better able to speak on the topic.

                Financially, I have walked you through why it's better via the numbers(based on 100,000KM+ driven and 4 Leafs, although only 3 are with us today). You have no experience with this topic matter, and have chosen not to try dispute my numbers because you can't, only seizing on a provably false myth about battery tampering. Can't prove me wrong, so then you resort to ad hominem attacks. Poor debating style!

                I can dispel your claims of unreliable batteries through literal first hand experience across four vehicles, two bought privately and two bought via dealers. I talk to NZ leaf owners every day via Facebook groups. It would be plainly obvious if this was a common problem, but it just isn't. Where are the thousands of people complaining? Hundreds of leafs get sold every month.

                I can measure my battery SoH, then charge it to full, drive it to almost empty, and the kilometers and energy use per KM line up almost perfectly(+/- a few percent, often attributable to weather and other environmental factors). Are you now going to argue that the metric system is unreliable, and that a kilometer can be adjusted? That our understanding of electricity is flawed and can be hacked? For my 24kWh leaf, my driving style takes approximately 160Whs per kilometer, and the battery reserves 2kWh as a buffer, and the measured health is 77%, therefore there is 16.94 kWh for me to use. That gives me an approximate range of 105 kilometers in that vehicle. I reset my odo after each full charge, and yesterday I drove 100 kilometers. I got home about 5km past the 2kWh(10-12km) remaining warning, meaning there was roughly 5-6km of range left in the vehicle. Bang on. It's hard to beat the law of averages.

                Hypothetically, if the SoH had been reset, I wouldn't suddenly be able to stuff more energy into the battery pack. I would still only be able to drive the 105 kilometers. You are currently saying someone can just adjust the car and either the laws of physics and energy conservation or the length of a kilometer. It becomes very plainly obvious if there's tampering.

                • @Neongreen: Interesting intellectually that you feel able to appeal to both the law of averages and your 'singular' experiences :-)

                  Thanks for all the links to objective evidence - they really made the point very eloquently.

                  We'll see you in a while when it really does make economic sense, but for now I'll leave you to it - there is little sense in debating with someone who has made up their mind and isn't willing to look at objective evidence, only their anecdotal personal 'observations' - there is more than enough of that around at the moment, and those people know better than everyone else too.


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