Can’t decide what to choose as some say significant cost savings with gas but some say otherwise.
Some say gas systems don’t function well and takes little while to catch up the heating while showering etc.
Anyone here has had first hand experience please?
So is electricity though. They also said the same though about petrol . Gas though is a transition fuel and it was actually seen as a cleaner option back in the 80's and 90's when cars were converted to it. We can't have everyone switching from gas to electricity overnight because the country likely wouldn't have the generation capacity. It has to be done slowly over decades. Especially with NZ choosing to increase it's population so rapidly. Instant gas hot water IMO is great and no heating loss, especially if you don't use much hot water. A pity there is no electric version of it.
Gas is going to increase in price much faster than electricity in the future.
Wow, didn't know that!
Residential natural gas prices have rocketed up over the last decade.
Gas is getting phased out so prices are just going to up. We would like to get rid of our gas.
Induction hobs are also a lot easier to keep clean and safe.
@Sickman: We are all electric and love it.
But for a house with existing gas, you might as well wait until it becomes truly uncomic (or your gas appliances are reaching the end of their usefull life) before switching to electric.
Our induction cooktop is awesome, but its replacement value is over $3k, and it required running a new wire to the switchboard.
@scott: We moved from a house with Induction to one with Gas and can't wait to change back. Reasonable induction hobs are around $2k plus wiring (yes, a new circuit). The fixed charge for our gas connection is over $600pa so switching the hot water to bottles and hob to induction is our current thinking. We'd then look at options for hot water such as an outside cylinder to get off the gas fully.
All up it's probably an outlay of $5-6k (not yet fully quoted) for the hob and water conversion so that'd be a 10 year payback based on the gas fixed charges.
@Nuzzer: We have an older version of the below which is $3100. But yeah, you can get a branded 60cm induction cooktop for $2k. I find the front & rear element spacings a bit tight on ours, but otherwise are happy with it.
https://www.noelleeming.co.nz/p/fisher-paykel-60cm-4-smartzo…
The last (and only) place I had gas cooking, I was really disappointed with it. (only one powerful element, and even that lacked balls for searing etc). Always assumed there was just something wrong with it, given how much people seem to rave about cooking on gas.
It is likely that 90% of your gas usage is going to hot water and 10% to cooking.
Generally people will do it the other way around. A cheap gas cooktop running off a BBQ bottle, and the hot water via an electric cylinder. But obviously that doesn't help you out with with regards to wanting induction.
On your payback calc's, note that Natural gas is dramatically cheaper than power or LPG per kWh. In the last place I lived with gas, these savings roughly paid for the connection charges (i.e. we were break even with if we were all electric), so ideal to include the loss of those saving when you run the payback calc.
That said, it is likely gas prices (especially the daily fee) will continue to rise, and that your appliances will age, so every year that passes, swapping across will look better and better.
And if you are environmentally aware, you likely want off Gas ASAP.
Note switching between LPG and natural gas requires injectors in appliances be changed (if it is possible at all)
lpg gas for cooking and electric for hot water. I've used induction and gas and while yes, induction is just as fast, it isn't as good as distributing the heat as gas imo, so the cooking isn't as uniform. While it's true gas may be gone by something like 2050, that's a long while away. My suggestion is to place in advance a 50A connection for a future upgrade to induction in 2050, but use gas meanwhile.
For addition context, a 9 kg lpg bottle for around 36 dollars refill gets us almost 3 months with cooking alone. I wouldn't suggest using bottled for general hot water though.
That is interesting. So gas for cooking and electric for hwc. Didn't know that 9kg will last that long! New house potentially will be coming with 45kg bottles and not 9kg..
Yes, you can go with 45 kg bottles (which should last you at least 6 months, if not a lot more), which we were originally going to do, but they usually come with rental cost (except for a few suppliers). After seeing how long our 9 kgs last and it's not a huge effort to get one refilled every few months, what was initially a temporary solution turned permanent. I'm sure as many have said gas prices may rise in future, but until it reaches perhaps double to triple the current prices, it's still acceptable. Just a little more information, we cook daily, and the daily cooktop use is around 30 minutes to an hour.
I do suggest getting a portable induction on the side for longer duration cooking (like slow cooking, simmering etc).
Domestic gas cooktop especially lpg doesn't get hot enough, go induction
Mains gas is already very expensive because of the daily charge. Love it for cooking on the hob, but I would have an electric oven & use bottled gas for the hob, and electric hwc (in an ideal situation with solar and wetback if practical)
We used to have the instant gas heated hot water - I really miss it, as you never run out, even with guests / teenagers / teenagers that act like guests in the house.
With a hot water tank, you can easily run out (you never actually run out of course, it just gets colder and colder) after a few people have been having showers etc.
Also, feel like it would be much less wasteful as you don't pay to keep the hot water heated that you aren't actually using.
We have a hot water tank now. Feel sorry for me!
Gas for cooking is great as it is much more controllable than electric, including induction (which we also used to have). That is likely why professional kitchens always have gas I guess, not that I have ever worked in one. I also seem to recall we had to throw out our old pans when we installed the induction hob, but it was more than twenty years ago when we did that, so I could be recalling incorrectly. I feel I still miss my old cast-iron frying pan, so feel sorry for me twice :-)
When we had a gas hob, and nothing else (oven, and hot water being electric in that place), our 9 / 12kg cylinder lasted us about six months each (perhaps 5 and 7 respectively), with five people in the house (including two around 18 and 20 years old), and we pretty much cook all our meals from basic ingredients (takeways maybe half a dozen times a year, and eat out maybe once a month), so not expensive in that respect. I used to, and still do, keep a few 9kg bottles, and fill up (or swap if they are getting older) when I spot a good deal. We never hired gas bottles as it always seemed ridiculously expensive for something I could do myself - exactly the same as the BBQ gas bottles), and I couldn't see the point in having massive bottles that would last a year when it takes literally a minute or two to swap over a 9kg / 12kg bottle).
With a hot water tank, you can easily run out (you never actually run out of course, it just gets colder and colder) after a few people have been having showers etc.
Just install a big electric cylinder in a new build. I got a 300L (I think they are typically only 180L?), and we have never run out.
Another advantage of a big cylinder with a 3kW element is that with a timer it can use our 3 hours of free power every day (with Contact good nights) instead of a small 2kW cylinder which needs topping up much more often. So our hot water is effectively free.
Also, feel like it would be much less wasteful as you don't pay to keep the hot water heated that you aren't actually using.
It would be interesting to see some data on this. Gas heating wastes a lot of energy (i.e. exhaust heat out of the vent when it's running), vs electric loosing heat just sitting idle. An electric heat pump would be the most efficient.
How do you get a timer installed and what timers are used, as doesn't it have to be wired in by a sparky? That could be fine while these power companies have these free power promotions, but they could end in the future.
Yes, just get a sparky to install the timer.
In my case I happen to use a Eddi solar diverter as I got solar panels installed before the free power promotions were a thing, but I can also program it as a timer to use the free hours now.
And yes while free power promos could end at any time, that comes down to the same problem as trying to predict the future gas/power prices. I guess just keep the system as flexible as possible if that concerns you (e.g. have the capability to add on solar or hot water heat pump in the future)
For a new build, one can just specify a large and / or powerful cylinder. I would get a 300 or 400L duel element one (top element on 24/7 power, bottom element on a timer optimized for solar or free power hours)
We currently have a 130L, never ran out with low flow shower heads, but our bathrooms have been renovated and high flow ones got put in and we run out sometimes now.
On induction cook tops, pans need iron in the base. Most modern cookware (if not already iron based) has a sheet of iron based into the bottom so it works on induction. (If a magnet sticks to the base it will work with induction)
Cast iron pans work fine on induction (but you want an exterior enamel so they don't scratch the glass). More likely you threw out old aluminium cookware.
Personally had the opposite experience. The gas cooktop at the last place I lived with one was super weak. Don't miss it at all.
But glad your current setup is working for you.
In short, go all electric (unless you really like wok cooking).
Have lived in a house with gas hot water & cooktop previously, and currently live in an all electric home, so can comment on both.
Prices below include GST. Gas in a water heater will be about 85% efficient, on a stove top about 30% efficient. Electricity in a hot water cylinder is 100% efficient (but you get 1 - 1.6 kWh/day of standing losses). Induction cook-top will be about 95% efficient.
Financials:
Gas (typically) comes in three distinct flavors:
Natural Gas (Piped gas from the street), North Island only: ~ $2.50/ day, 14c / kWh
LPG (45kG bottles: 625 kWh): ~$150 a fill (24c/kWh) + ~100 a year in bottle rental.
LPG (9kg bottles: 125 kWh): ~$45 a swap (36c / kWh)
For comparison (will vary by location):
Standard user power ~20c / kWh + $2.5/day
Low user power (being phased out): ~28c / kWh + $1.40 / day
(obviously the daily fees for power are a sunk cost so shouldn't been considered in a comparison with gas.
From the above, it is pretty clear:
- If you are on standard user power, Electricity is cheaper than LPG.
- If you are on low user power, LPG in 45kg bottles is a touch cheaper, but the $100 rental eats into this savings. Break-even point is 4 bottles. But given low use power is being phased out, don't base your decision on this.
- LPG in 9 kG bottles is way more expensive (but no daily / annual charge as you buy the bottle)
- Natural gas is about half the cost of power, but the daily charge is fairly massive. If you are better off depends on how much you use, but when we had natural gas (Gas for cooktop + Hot water + flame effect fire for 5 adults), we were roughly break even with low user power. If you do go Natural gas, get as much stuff as you can on gas to make the most of the giant daily charge.
Note that for a new built Natural gas will cost a few thousand to get connected.
Experience:
Hot water: Both a larger gas system and mains pressure electric hot water will deliver heaps of hot water (avoid low pressure electric)
Gas is typically a tankless system (meaning endless hot water, and no storage losses), but only about 85% efficient. Fairly compact unit typically mounted outside. Will do well to last a decade. Can't do very low flows (dripping hot water into a bucket etc). Some systems need the thermostat reset every time there is a power cut.
Electric is typically a mains pressure cylinder with a resistance heater installed somewhere inside (takes up room, but given it leaks 1 - 1.6 kWh of heat a day, if located in a linen cupboard, creates a nice warm / dry area to keep your sheets warm and fresh. Last a very long time. Ours is 31 years old. Many power companies will give you a discount of about 2c/ kWh on your entire power bill if you have you hot water cylinder wired up so it is "controlled" (i.e. can be turned off at peak time).
No issue with low flows, but you can run out. When we had low flow shower heads, we only ran out if we did something crazy (filled kids paddling pool with hot water via a hose etc). Recently had bathrooms renovated and they put high flow shower heads. two long back to back showers can run out our (small by modern standards) 130L cylinder. Larger cylinders, rapid reheat etc are available if you are concerned about running out. Outdoor rated cylinders are available.
If you are getting solar (or think you might get it in the future), it is ideal to get a big (300 - 400L) cylinder with duel (top and bottom elements). Top element is connected to 24/7 power and it's thermostat will only turn it on if you get down to you last 90L or so of hot water. Bottom element is connected to a solar controller (or simple timer), so it heats you water in either or both peak solar production hours, or off peak power hours. Gives you the best of both worlds in you use cheap power to heat 95% odd of your hot water, but have a safety net if you hot water gets absolutely slammed one evening.
Hot water heat pumps are also avaiable. Cost a few thousand more than a regular hot water cylidner, but use 1/3rd of the power to do the same job. Plan on needing to replace the heat pump bit in a decade.
Cooking.
Cook tops use not much energy so energy cost is not a big concern.
Gas: the one at the last place I lived with gas absolutely sucked. Water took ages to boil, couldn't get the pan hot enough to brown mince etc. Only one element was big… But I assume powerfull gas cooktops are available. About 60% of the energy & combustion products flow around the pan / pot, so you want a decent expel air. Gas cook tops are cheap (~$600) and look flash, so popular with developers
Electric: You want induction cook-top. Ceramic etc sucks. A lot more expensive at around $3k for a nice induction cook-top. Amazing to cook on. Very powerful & precise control. Need a lot of power (my 60cm unit needs a 32A feed for it alone). Need Cookware with iron in the bottom. Need some ventilation clearances under your bench-top.
Not while I do wok on my induction cooktop is is not ideal as the heat does not go up the sides of the wok. My ideal kitchen would be a ~80-90 cm induction cooktop & a wok burner like the below next to it under a giant extractor fan.
https://www.kitchenthings.co.nz/asko-hg1365gd-33cm-1-burner-…
By the way on extractor fans, regardless of what cooktop you pick get it one size bigger. i.e 60cm cooktop, get a 90cm extractor fan.
Convenience: Electric and piped natural gas have no user intervention. 45 kG bottles will be installed in pairs. When you run out of gas you go outside and flip the change over valve, run back to the shower, then phone up and order the empty bottle refilled when you are dry. If cooktop only, 9kg bottles are likely a manual swap (BBQ style), but you could get a changeover valve system if you wanted. You need to take the empty bottle to get filled / swapped (great for area's where 45kg deliveries aren't made, such as if you have to steps on the way to your house).
BBQ: Can get this plumbed up to your gas connection, but we never bothered.
Future: Both natural gas & LPG are fossil fuels. Gas fields are in decline, but there should be enough natural gas for residential customers until 2050. Natural gas prices have been hiked a heap in recent years, and it seems the industry is keen to milk their shrinking customer base to the end. Expect price increases. It has been recommended that NZ phase out residential gas, This has yet to be adopted by the government, but potentially could start as early as 2035.
As an additional note, In interest of future proofing, try and get a fairly big electrical connection.
For example, vector in Auckland offers:
60A single phase
100A single phase
60A three phase
100A three phase
But check out if this will impact your daily fees. As an example, vector in Auckland charges the same daily rate for all four of the above, but some lines companies charge heaps more if you have three phase hooked up.
We have no gas (and one EV) and are on a 60A connection, and I think we are getting towards the upper limit of it. Would way rather have a higher power option, but the cost to upgrade is prohibitive.
High power single phase is better for solar (with three phase, you can end up with some phases importing (at retail price), and others exporting at wholesale price).
But three phase offers more power overall (you share your loads around the phases). Most bigger modern EV's will change at 11kW on 3 phase vs ~7kW on single phase. Also you can run 3 phase equipment, stuff like sauna's, kilns, pumps, industrial grade machinery & welders, giant pool heat pumps etc.
+1 for oversized extractor i recommend offset the extractor a little to the side that has the main cooking element and the bonus if the offset can cover the bench immediately adjacent where you place the rice cooker so it can catch rice cooker steam. Ensure you have a plug there.
This only works for stealth cabinet extractor, if you had large vent you probably need it centered for aesthetics.
I have natural gas hot water and cooking, my shower takes seconds to get to temp, but my hot water tap in the kitchen takes a minute at least.
So it all depends where the water heater is located, and how the system is designed.
Also i find gas for cooking is great particularly with wok style cooking whereas induction tech is faster and more efficient (but not so good with round base woks).
Side note, if you live with a forgetful person, there is nothing more scary than getting a glass of water at 1am and finding they have left the gas cooker going, probably not an issue with induction.
Also i think the climate change comission has recommended banning gas after 2025 for new homes, but i dont think this will be made effective.
I've started a new build for a family member and we have gone all electric, induction cooking, with 3phase power to provide capacity for newer high power demanding tech, ev charging etc.
Instant electric hot water for whole house doesnt appear to be very common, and heatpump hot water was priced quite expensive but hoping that will improve.
Thanks! We are trying to figure out if we should go
1. full electric
2. gas for cooking and electric for hwc
3. gas for both cooking & hwc (but worried that hot water might take a while to come depending on the distance to the gas heater thing)
We have an internal infinity hot water system for the distance. Cost more though
I have a cast iron wok that has a flat bottom that works on an induction hob. The inside is still curved.
On instant hot water, the bottom line is you heed a heap of power (i.e. fat incoming wires) to run them, but they are available.
I did specify one of these the below for the shower at a sewage pump station, but that site had so much power for the pump that the extra load was a drop in the bucket.
https://www.stiebel-eltron.co.nz/3-phase-electric-instant-ho….
Small size needs 27 amps 3 phase. Large size needs 38.9 amps 3 phase. At a 27 or 28 degree rise, the small unit is good for 10 L/min (1 shower) and the big one 14 L/min (1 shower + a handwash, or two shit showers). (9 L/min is a WEL 3 star showerhead, really flow rates vairy between 6.5L/min and 24 L/min). Even the Big unit is only really big enough to do the whole house on a very small house.
Gas water heaters start at the size of the big unit and go up to nearly double the size.
(in my area 60 or 100 amp 3 phase connections are available), so the big unit, (or two small units) are workable.
Most people go for cylinders as the electrical needs are a lot lower Also you get to go on cheaper "controlled" power rates.
Modern thing to do is big twin element cylinders. set the bottom one up to turn on in peak solar hours (or you free power window), and have top one allways powered so it can kick in if you look like you are getting low on hot water.
Another thing to take into account is if you're going for solar panels & batteries.
If you go for gas for the cooking/hot water, you'll still have a gas bill on top of electricity.
Whereas if you're fully electric you can make the most of the "free" electricity from the solar
We aren't looking at solar at the moment as cost may be too much
Financials or residential solar are getting good. Appreciate you may be maxed out in terms of capital if you are doing a new build, but I would recommend to have electrical conduit put in to future proof for it.
I have had various combinations over the years and have a 3 year old house currently. Gas hot water is near instant depending how close you are to the external heater versus pipes running through your ceiling. Gas cooking is much faster. Gas prices are going up and government is still currently looking like cutting gas in the near future. I'm banking on having to switch in the not to distant future. I'd go all electric for a new build despite the benefits at the moment.
Induction is just as fast, if not faster than gas.
Induction is also much safer, only heating when the pot is on the element and switching off when it is removed.
Than a standard residential gas hob yes. Boost modes are pretty quick.
But dont allow for the fine control and instant control of temperature like gas as with gas you can control heat by moving the pan too.
Control is instant on induction
But yeah, you are limited to step's. Personally I find 10 steps are enough for me, but if you do need to choose between 6 or 7 to cook your saussages. there is no 6.5
@scott: You cant raise the pot above the heatsource and still have it work, is what im getting at.
Induction is far better than traditional radiant elements which have thermal lag
@Dazza: Ah, yes.
Gotta have the pan within about 5mm of the induction cooktop for it to work, and it is 100% -> zero when you move it further than that.
Thoughts on cost wise - which one do you prefer?
I'm not fully savvy on the latest laws or upcoming laws - gas company sales person said gas will never be banned as ALL restaurants use gas which means there will always be gas supply.
Have you had a look at prices for gas in your area? We’re on mains gas, and while it’s nice it’s increasingly getting harder to get cheaper prices. Usually half our bill is made up of the daily fee, probably even more in summer.
Personally if you ever plan on solar in the future, I would save the hassle now and go all electric. We’re hoping to get panels sometime soon and plan to remove our gas appliances once we have them.
Frank energy in my area offers free bottle rental for LPG if you also have your power with them. So that is quite a big saving, especially if your gas usage is low.
Gas probably won't be banned, but it will be a lot more expensive compared to electricity in the future.
"gas company sales person"
Perhaps not the most unbiased source.
"ALL restaurants use gas"
False. As an example the entire 13 stall food court at the soon to open Manawa bay mall will be electric only.
Summary: Go all electric!!!!
Lpg (bottle) cost more than natural gas (piped)
Induction easier to clean
Induction is way faster and hotter than gas
The same cooktop will have slightest higher btu when setup with natural gas vs lpg (in my experience). The difference for my aeg cooktop was about 10% hotter with natural gas.
Electric safer than gas
If lpg then annoying to have to get replacements delivered. Check they can wheel cylinder past the cars without having to move them.
Gas being phased out.
Gas can have cooking when power outage (need match to light) however you won't have hot water (bc need electricity to light). Hot water cylinder will still have hot water in power cut.
Induction needs special pots and pans. Can get flat bottomed induction "wok".
Modern gas cooktop has safety valve that won't let gas flow if element is not lit and if flame blown out the valve will turn off (it uses heat sensor).
The comment that you need to flip the valve for lpg bottle is incorrect the valves auto flip between bottles based on pressure.
Gas and heat pump have unlimited hot water (eg family visiting lots of showers).
Hot water cylinder takes up space in house, gas or heat pump instant or instant electric doesn't have a cylinder and can be stored outside.
Both manual & auto changeover valves exist.
With auto you need to monitor it to see when it has changed, so you can order the new bottle. There is a risk of not noticing, which is eliminated with a manual change over.
I think it comes down to personal taste which setup to use.
Should note that outdoor hot water cylinders are also available (but you can no longer use the waste heat to warm your linen cupboard).
We have manual values for lpg bottles and I prefer them vs auto flip one as you won't know if it has flipped until you check it. There is a risk of you missing it, considering each bottle lasts few months.
This has happened to me a couple of times. I just make sure every new bottle installed now has the valve closed (put a sign up for the delivery guy).
We have infinity instant gas hot water, gas hob and gas fire love it but: Was cheap when we installed it when building our new house in 1999. Not anymore. We are low users for power. Pay more per power unit as we need to be anytime users as they can't control our hot water tank as we don't have one.
Gas prices have risen a lot in the last few years. The daily supply charge is a lot when you are paying it for both the power and the gas.
With gas we pay around $54 a month in supply charge only, the gas we use is normally less than that.
When our infinity system dies we will seriously consider whether to convert to power. As gas prices and supply charges are rising a lot faster and more frequently than power.
If I was building again now I wouldn't install gas again.
Gas: Finite resource. Electric: Infinite resource
All you need to know really :)
NZ has limited electricity generation capacity though, and prices are rising a lot. It is a bit like people buying hybrids and ICUs still, compared to buying electric vehicles.
We can build more generation capacity. Transpower generation connection queue has more Megawatts in it than NZ has in current generation….
There is also this article to read: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/507393/possible-death-sp…
"Faced with increasing gas prices, we're likely to see an increasing number of residential, commercial and industrial consumers users switch away to alternatives, however this has the effect of making the price of gas even higher for those consumers who remain gas users, as the largely fixed cost of maintaining and running the pipelines will be spread over an increasingly small number of customers."
That 'death spiral' could leave pipe companies out of pocket, but Coates said the Commerce Commission was reducing this risk by allowing gas companies to front-load recovering their pipeline costs from customers.
I have gas hot water and cooking. I would go electric hw and induction cooking now.
LPG has gone up heaps and you most of your heat when cooking.
Also gas cooking not good for your health.
Apparently cooking with gas doesn't use that much gas. Hot water is where most seems to get used, as heating water uses a lot of energy.
Oops, I meant the efficiency of gas cooking is low as most heat is loss to the room rather than to the pan.
Recent studies show the impuries coming from the gas during cooking are pretty toxic to your health so make sure you have your extractor fan on.
You can buy a small induction hob to use quite cheaply, without replacing the gas hobs. I have one beside my gas hobs. They work pretty well I have found.
Gas is going to be Very expensive in the future.